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TV SHOWS - The Incredible Shrinking Episode
(click on the names to see responses)
14 May 2006 03:34:51 -0700
rec.arts.tv
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Troy.Heagy...
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The following comments apply to ALL tv shows (in general), but I'm
using Star Trek as my example. Look how tv shows have shrunk over
time:
Star Trek (kirk's ship/1960s) == 51 minutes
Star Trek Next Generation == 46 minutes
Star Trek Voyager year 7 == 44 minutes
Enterprise years 2/3/4 == 43 minutes
Steven L....
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You're right.
I saw another survey that said that the average number of minutes of
episode in a one-hour time slot is now down to less than 45.
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FACE...
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One thing here, when you see a rerun of a show from the sixties, it kinda
makes you wonder what happened in the nine minutes that they have cut out to
make it fit the new, improved, running time.
No doubt there changes that are similar in scale in running time for 1/2
hour shows.
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As if that weren't bad enough, they shrunk the season from 28 to only
22.
Steven L....
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And if THAT weren't bad enough, they have now invented something
new--product placements. Even the episode itself contains embedded
Maureen Goldman...
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In the 1950's, wasn't product placement identified as coming from "our
sponsor"? I'm thinking of dancers in Lucky Strikes cigarette box
costumes, that sort of thing. OTOH, it may be that shows had fewer
sponsors back in those days, perhaps only one company backing a show.
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Lance Corporal \"Hammer\" Schultz...
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Product placement is as old as commercial broadcast television.
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references to sponsor products. Even the "commercial-free" DVD version
that you pay for, will still have those embedded product placements.
Ben...
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Yes, I certainly wondered how much AOL had paid them to place its huge
logo on the video's, email, etc in the recent shows
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So how long will future series be?
35 minutes and 15 episodes?
BC...
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What are the current number of episodes per season for Stargate SG-1 and
MONK?
Brian Henderson...
Brian Henderson...
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Oops, I mean 20 and 16. Finger slipped.
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BC
Tobias Fünke...
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Interestingly, for the first 7 seasons, SG-1 had 22 episodes. Then for 8 + 9
they had 20 episodes.
As for Monk, the first season was 13 eps and the rest were 16. Odd.
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John Cocktosen...
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Season 2 of SG Atlantis was only 20 episodes...
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Brian Henderson...
BC...
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Thanks. I thought that they were shorter than Smallville. Just about the
time I get used to seeing MONK the season is finished.
BC
Edward McArdle...
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But I would always prefer that a show have well-written episodes. The
more episodes the more likely that some of them will be padding.
I hear that the new production of The Prisoner will have only six
episodes - which is about what McGoohan wanted in the first place.
Patrick Joseph McNamara...
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That's a show that could be hurt by product placement. The original used
very generic titles on products.
Mike Russell...
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Oh I dunno. It seems to me that few Coke machines sprinkled around the
Village, and maybe some Disney rides or paraphernalia, would add to the
atmosphere of parti-colored mind control.
Wonder what Rover will look like in CGI.
ANIM8Rfsk...
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Probably like some horrible transformer multi function robot, like they
wanted in the first place.
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JEDIDIAH...
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Having some strategically placed "brands" could actually be a nice
subversive twist.
Patrick Joseph McNamara...
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Like the Apple logo outside a fruitstand? Or the McDonalds' 'M' outside a
meat store?
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It's not really funny, a lot of cable series are already going to the
13-16 episode seasons and I wouldn't be surprised, unfortunately, to
see even more commercials running in the future. 30 minutes of
programming and 30 minutes of commercials is certainly possible.
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(laughs)
I understand that entertainment is not free, and that the commercials
are required in order to pay the $3-4 million per hour expense, but
it's getting a little ridiculous. No wonder more & more people are
using VCRs or DVRs to skip over the ~20 minutes per hour of ads.
radioguy...
Brian (aka Zod)...
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yup, what really gets me, is i pay 50 bux a month to watch the
commercials, how'd we end up with a system like that anyways?
the cycle has to stop eventually... too many channels now, so viewership
goes down, so they sell more commercials to cover it, but then people
just stop watching them.
with dvd sales and what not now, surely they don't need so many commercials.
- bRian
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The Lone Harangeur...
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Go further back than Star Trek: What's My Line? had 55 minutes as did Beat
the Clock. They need to rip a page from FM radio's new playbook - 18 in a
row and then 3-4 IMPRESSIVE commercials.
ANIM8Rfsk...
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And they were doing 39 episodes a year in the 1950s.
Brian Henderson...
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It depends on the show, they were all over the place.
Taking a couple of popular old shows, Gilligan's Island had 36
episodes the first season, 32 the second season and 33 the third.
Batman had 34 episodes the first season, 59 the second, and 25 the
wdstarr...
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If the IMDb is right, just Frank Gorshin and John Astin. (The IMDb
lists Astin's appearances as "uncredited." If true, I wonder what
the heck that was about.)
ANIM8Rfsk...
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That would be really odd.
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wdstarr...
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Only Julie Newmar and Eartha Kitt in the tv series though. Lee
Meriwether was only in the movie.
wdstarr...
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Oops, I just processed your footnote: "*I'm counting that one
episode where they had no name people play cameo villains."
Never mind most of what I said then, though I'm still wondering why
ANIM8Rfsk...
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LOL, okay, ignore my reply, too.
though I'm still wondering why
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Astin was uncredited.
ANIM8Rfsk...
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yeah, that's odd. I wonder if they credited him with a big "?" ?
Of course they might have confused him with the uncredited Malachi Throne as
Commodore Mendez, er, the Keeper, damn, I meant Noah Bain.
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wdstarr...
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Nobody but Cesar Romero.
ANIM8Rfsk...
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William, William, William
riddle me this:
did you miss the part at the bottom where I said:
"*I'm counting that one episode where they had no name people play cameo
villains."
?
There's an ep where they got other people to play several of the big
villains -- I'm sure the Joker and the Riddler, probably the Penguin and
Catwoman as well.
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wdstarr...
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Now that's where they had three different ones: George Sanders, Otto
Preminger and Eli Wallach.
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third.
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The Lone Harangeur...
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OT- What's My Line? was a year-round endeavor. I've been watching for over
a year now [TIVO- 3 AM is a little late]. That program is a priceless
antique mirror of the 1950's and 1960's. The panelists were mostly
intelligent and well versed in what was going on in the world then. They're
coming up on the Kennedy assisnation in the reurn cycle now. It'll be
interesting to see how they reacted and changed with that. It's rumored
that Dorothy Killgallen was murdered as a result of her ongoing interviews
with Jack Ruby. She was the only journalist Ruby trusted. Bennett Cerf
gives a good picture of what a Conservative was back then.
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Rob Jensen...
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Of mostly crap even more formulaic than today's CSI franchises. And
the production values of the day were amateurish *even for the time*
just to crank out so many episodes in so little time.
And forget well-written serialized shows of any kind. Wasn't even a
*possibility* until Peyton Place in the 60's and even then, the
serialized shows didn't start achieving any of its potential until
Wiseguy, The X-Files and similar hits of the late 80's and early 90's
showed that serialization is not synonymous with soap opera crap.
I'll take today's 22-to-24 episode seasons over the formulaic hackwork
of the 50's anyday. Except for 7th Heaven, which *adhered* to that
deplorable hack model even while only producing 22-23 episodes per
year because Hampton & Co. couldn't be bothered to do better.
-- Rob
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A BIG thank you to the NAB, National Association of Broadcasters and the
FCC. They allow it. Commercial broadcasting requires commercials.
The more commercials the better ... to constant drumbeat of ... we need
revenue ... pump the bottom line ... we care about quality TV
progranmming (wink) (wink) ... show me the money is reality. What a
wonderful world. :(
Just to add another log to fire, how about Saturday night broadcast
television? The worst night of programming on TV, primarily reruns and
fills and warmed over long form news.
BTR1701...
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That's because most people don't stay at home to watch TV on Saturday
night.
radioguy...
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That used to be the common wisdom but it is no longer supportable. More
and more people are cocooning (staying at home) Many renting DVDs or
entertaining themselves on computers. The cost of gas and the
outrageous cost of just going to a movies is not at all in proportion to
reasonableness.
Saturday night hasn't always been that way. The Mary Tyler Moor Show
and Bob Newhardt Show both were on Saturday night and wildly popular.
If my mind isn't too foggy, Have Gun Will Travel and other classics also
were on Saturday.
BC...
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Gunsmoke--I think the longest running series?, was on Sat IIRC. Gleason was
also--what has become of variety shows?
BC
Dano...
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I remember Jackie Gleason was the big Saturday night show in our house when
I was a wee lad...my Dad's favorite of all time. Saturday night...hot dogs,
beans and brown bread...and the June Taylor Dancers.
BC...
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"And awaaaay we go!"
BC
FACE...
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Mid sixties. Sat nite at 10PM. Mannix. (after Paladin after Jackie
Gleason.)
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Patrick Joseph McNamara...
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Then they wonder why nobody is watching.
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ANIM8Rfsk...
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So you're saying we got 1428 minutes of real Trek a year, and only 946
minutes of ENTERPRISE?
Isn't that GOOD news???
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Andy P. Jung...
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I was watching 24 - Seasons 2 & 3's hour 1 on DVD which originally ran
without commercial interruptions on FOX besides the Ford sponsored
commercials before and after the episode aired. Season 2 & 3's premiere
episode were each 50 minutes long versus the 42 minutes of a typical 24
episode. So basically you got what you use to get back in the '60s with less
commercials.
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Jorabi...
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With people getting used to having no commercials on VCRs, DVD sets
and premium cable, there must be some viewers who gave up broadcast
TV because of all the ads. So why don't the nets get together and
agree on a 50-minute program length and just charge more for each
commercial?
Lance Corporal \"Hammer\" Schultz...
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Sounds like you are recommending price fixing on advertising minutes.
IANAL, but that's probably illegal.
Jorabi...
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Agreeing on program length, not ad rates. They didn't seem to have a
problem agreeing on a 42-minute program length!
Lance Corporal \"Hammer\" Schultz...
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I understand what you're saying, but removing broadcaster discretion
with regard to program length and ad time reduces competitive
variables. Broadcasters need to be able to decide how many minutes of
ad time they will show in order to decide pricing, etc. They have to
constantly weigh the benefits of increased ad time vs. viewer
frustration with shortened program length in order to ensure a profit
(which is why they exist in the first place).
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It would make viewers and producers happy and may even bring back some
of the lost viewers. As of now the program content is too short to
allow deeper plots.
Lance Corporal \"Hammer\" Schultz...
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It won't make a difference.
1. More people are happy to buy season DVDs. Wait one year and you
can get the whole thing in a box for $40, no ads, great quality, and
no waiting for a week to see the next episode. This is what I am
doing now that I decided I don't want to pay extra for SciFi channel
(where I live it's only on digital cable).
2. Tivo, Tivo, Tivo. Less ads is still no ads seen in this house.
Jorabi...
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Valid points WRT skipping ads, but misses the point about there not
being enough program content anymore, which hinders storylines and
cheats the viewer regardless of delivery method.
Lance Corporal \"Hammer\" Schultz...
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Maybe it does, but I am not convinced that people who watch ads, in
general, are cerebral enough to care about storylines. A few extra
minutes of ad time in Fear Factor doesn't change *anything*. Those of
us watching Stargate SG1 are going to be the people who either wait
for the DVD or skip the ads with a Tivo.
Of course, I have no evidence of any of this. :-)
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JPM III...
AZ Carol B....
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They will probably be like that troop that does a whole
Shakespeare play in 5 minutes;-)) They are a riot!
Carol B.
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Thanks to modern technology that you've just mentioned, I think commercial
breaks in shows have reached their saturation point as far as how much time
they take out of the hour. I imagine that in the next few years, we'll begin
seeing fewer commercial breaks and more ad placement or even "popup" ads
during the show. And, naturally, digital and satellite services will offer a
"premium" option to prevent those ads from being shown on your TV.
Taking a cue from the internet, TV will get better again, but it will still
cost the consumer.
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Venger...
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Go to the movies lately? There are frickin' TELEVISION commericals there.
JPM III...
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That depends on the theatre (or the theatre company).
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It's all part of the same cycle - everyone want to be a millionaire, and the
money has to come from somewhere. As the costs go up, the viewers go down,
meaning to make the revenue they have to add MORE commericials/price hikes,
which further pushing viewership down.
BC...
radioguy...
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Those little IDs in the corner of TV screens are referred to, in the
industry, as bugs. Nothing like being branded on cable channels you pay
for as well as those you don't via broadcast.
I agree with others in this thread that the viewing habits of many have
changed. Receiving programs via TIVO type devices, I-Pods and other
Dano...
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Wise choice I suppose, if you don't mind limiting your choices to the major
network fare, or if you can't afford it...unfortunately I can't bring myself
to give up some very good premium programs such as the various HBO series
like the Sopranos, Deadwood, Carnivale (canceled...but I'll miss it), The
Wire, Rome. There's quite a bit of unique stuff being produced that I would
miss, in addition, I'm a huge Red Sox fan and they aren't available at all
anymore on free, broadcast TV at all...don't like it, but that's just the
way it goes.
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hardware devices.
This rerun problem is POing a lot of viewers. The networks are looking
at, the concept of wo seasons in the future. They have been toying with
it the last year or two. Playing a series all the way through and then
another another series, companion or not. The Soap Opera version of
this programming, known as Novellas, on the Spanish channels, is
catching on.
In the meantime more "reality" shows, without any redeeming value, other
than to fill space, trashing others. Yep, TV is a wonderful setting the
standard.
BC...
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Seems like the glory days of everything is well in the past: Tv, movies and
me. Oh the humanity! :-(
BC
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Go to matinees and go late. Many times we have the theatre to ourselves.
Sometimes there maybe as many as 10 people there. What a crowd.
BC
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In 50 years, everything will be pay per view. There will be no commericals.
Ed Stasiak...
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Just like we were promised with cable TV?....
I'd say within 10 years we'll be stuck with pay-per-view-for-
everything but the commercials will still be there, just as they
are (in even greater numbers now) with cable TV.
FACE...
ANIM8Rfsk...
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Um
"The Jackie Gleason Show" ran from 1952-1959
Have Gun Will Travel ran from 1957-1963
"The Jackie Gleason Show" ran from 1966-1970
Mannix ran from 1967-1975
There wasn't a time they were all on together.
FACE...
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Gleason for example: http://www.classictvhits.com/show.php?id=800
"In 1962 Gleason returned to the tried-and-true variety format with his
American Scene Magazine. Like his earlier shows, American Scene was
initially filmed live in New York City; after two seasons, production moved
to Miami, Florida. In 1966 the title once again became The Jackie Gleason
Show, and would remain so until the show's cancellation in 1970. By this
point the episodes included well-known guest stars and skits that were later
collected as The New Honeymooners. The regular cast of the new variety show
included Gleason and old sidekick Art Carney; Milton Berle was a frequent
guest star."
Looks like Paladin is the only one out. But anyway, so what.
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BC...
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I think you or all of us would be surpised to see what is being cut out of
Smallville to make it fit the time.
Lance Corporal \"Hammer\" Schultz...
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I can't imagine any amount of time added to the show magically making
the last season not suck so bad.
BC...
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The one script that I have is for the "Pilot" and looks like it would run 60
minutes. So nearly twenty minutes may have been cut.
Season 3 has the highest number of "good" episodes IMO. Season 4 is pretty
grim, maybe half or less are interesting. This year maybe worse.
BC
ANIM8Rfsk...
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I was enjoying this ep until #100. I enjoyed the beginning of that one, but
it fell apart horribly, and the series hasn't recovered.
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BC
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RobertVA...
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Some programs are processed through a device that plays them back
slightly faster then the original playback speed. I imagine it drops a
few frames each second. Either the increased speed isn't noticeable with
ANIM8Rfsk...
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Actually it drops fields; frames you'd notice even more.
wdstarr...
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What does that mean, technically? (I know what a frame is;
what's a field? )
ANIM8Rfsk...
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A field is half a frame. It's a way of pushing information through
broadcast bottlenecks. 2 fields make up a frame, the odd and even scan
lines, interlaced together. If you ever still framed a VCR, and the still
was kind of fuzzy, and lines were jaggy, that's 'cause it was displaying a
field, and not a frame.
So you've got 60 fields (well, 59.94, don't ask) in a second of video. So
instead of dropping frame 3, giving you a CLUNK, you drop field 3 and field
6 or something, smoothing out the CLUNK.
Same thing translating 24fps to 30fps. You don't add a frame every 4
frames, you add 2 fields every 8 fields, and not together - I think that
math is right, it's midnight and I just turned into a pumpkin, but the
theory is correct as presented anyway. :-)
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And (using frames) if it dropped 1 frame a second it would cut 2 minutes out
of an hour, just FYI.
Either the increased speed isn't noticeable with
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voices or there's some sort of frequency compensation because the higher
playback rate isn't as noticeable with performer voices as it is with
background music.
Rob Jensen...
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It's totally noticeable with Gilmore Girls, which plays substantially
slower (and better) on DVD.
-- Rob
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ANIM8Rfsk...
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They do it both ways. I remember seeing some sped up Newhart episodes that
they hadn't bothered to run audio correction on, and everybody was taking
like Alvin.
FACE...
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This is funny. I invite corrections to what i am about to say, the numbers
may be off, but the events are real.
I know that some here will know what I am talking about and I will make it
as short as possible.
In the mid-fifties (prehistoric, I know) I was in the 4th grade. I call it
"the year we watched movies" -- documentaries, travelogues, etc., about the
world's geography, people, cultures, construction. Every afternoon, it
seems.
The BW films were often about 30 years old, or circa 1920s and '30s.
The video of the older films were jerky, the people walked too fast,
performed tasks in "fast-forward" mode, etc....... The audio was fine as I
recall, but remember we are talking about a half-century ago -- It may have
been dubbed, I don't know.
The films had been shot at 24-25 frames per sec., the "modern" playback was
ANIM8Rfsk...
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If you were watching stuff that old, it was likely from hand cranked cameras
which means it's only an approximation of a regular running speed. Also
very possible they were trying for 16 or 18 frames per second, which would
account for speed up when shown at 24. Documentaries and travelogues would
have had the sound added later.
the "modern" playback was
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27 frames per sec.
ANIM8Rfsk...
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27? Assuming you were watching a movie projector, sound, in the 1950s, in
the USA, playback would have been 24.
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No, you never see this these days, but you may have seen some really old
clips of a young Charlie Chaplin that were like that.
So anyway, I think they cut fluff scenes, and pregnant pauses from older TV
shows. So who decides what is fluff or unnecessary dramatic pauses?
ANIM8Rfsk...
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Fluff scenes, yes. Pauses? Nobody takes the time to go in and cut pauses
for time. Look at how they butcher STAR TREK. They just freeze somebody in
mid sentence, fade out, and after the commercial, fade back up on another
scene.
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Eek! I gave away my age!
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Originally, cable TV (HBO) *was* commercialess.
Tonight, for "24", I will change from cable to broadcast w/antenna for that
hour or so because (TaDa!) reception is better for that channel on broadcast
tv.
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You will purchase shows and channels a la carte. The most you will likely
BTR1701...
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I'm already doing that with some shows on iTunes. It's worth it to me to
pay $2.00 to see a show commercial-free when I want to see it.
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get will be "sponsorship", sort of like PBS, where the company sponsoring
the shot gets a blurb, and then you get to the material uninterrupted.
Movies will be the same way, by the way - theaters are going to start
plowing under at the going rates. Chris Tucker gets $25 million for Rush
Hour 3? You think popcorn was expensive before...
BC...
BC...
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That ep did fall apart dramatically about half way through. I can't see
that I have really gotten into an ep since. It is easy to pick out the
better eps since that point but it doesn' mean they are as good as some from
past seasons. Splinter may have been the best ep of the season.
BC
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I was in the 4th grade in 1958 and I totally agree with you on your memory.
I do remember seeing some 40's films--usually comedies that were used to
entertain the troops--like Martha Raye, Joe E. Brown, Hope and Crosby, the
Ritz Brothers etc. Johnny Carson said on his Tonight Show one time that
Harry Ritz was the funniest comedian that he ever saw.
BC
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